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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:07 pm 
 
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AlaskanThunderfuck wrote:
Fluoride in my tap water is directly related to my sparkling white teeth. Tap water 4 life. :wink:


fluoride never was hyped as a teeth whitener...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:23 pm 
 
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fluoridation is the greatest fraud that has ever been perpetrated and it has been perpetrated on more people than any other fraud has

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:33 pm 
 
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So, do we have a skeletal fluorosis epidemic on our hands? If not, why? Telling me that a substance can cause bad effects at chronic high-doses is not telling me anything at all, because poison = dose. I am highly skeptical about the dangers of fluoride, but it's also difficult to find non-ADA sponsored studies about it.

edit:
http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/gfm477v1

Quote:
However, while access to fluoridated drinking water has positive effects on dental health, the characteristics of fluoride metabolism mean that fluoride consumption may have implications for the kidney. The calcified tissues in the human body contain 99% of the body burden of fluoride and most of this is non-exchangeable. Absorption of fluoride is rapid and extensive, with about 50% of the absorbed fluoride becoming associated with calcified tissues within 24 h and the remainder being excreted in the urine. In infants and young children, the amount of fluoride retained in calcified tissues is >50% of the ingested daily amount. The renal clearance of fluoride is high, around 30–40 ml/min in healthy adults [7]. Fluoride is freely filtered by the glomerulus and then undergoes a variable amount of tubular reabsorption. Fluoride excretion falls markedly in the presence of an acid urine and is increased with higher rates of urine flow [8–10]. Considering the pivotal role of the kidney in the body's ability to metabolize fluoride, there have been surprisingly few attempts to synthesize studies relating to the relationship between fluoride consumption and kidney function. The most recent literature reviews on the health effects of fluoride intake have contained limited discussion on the potential impact on the kidneys


Quote:
There is no consistent evidence that the retention of fluoride in people with stage 4 or 5 CKD who consume optimally fluoridated drinking water results in any negative health consequences. Animal studies have demonstrated that rats with compromised kidney function that are exposed to the level of fluoride that is commonly encountered by human populations (1 ppm in drinking water) do not develop any clinically adverse extraskeletal physiological, biochemical or genetic outcomes [21]. In addition, in rats with surgically induced renal deficiency, consumption of fluoridated water in concentrations equivalent to 3 and 10 ppm is required to cause osteomalacia and reduced bone strength [37]. Changes in the function of normal rat kidneys occur only following administration of extremely high doses of fluoride, equivalent to severe fluoride intoxication [38].


Quote:
Studies of people with end-stage kidney disease by Cohen-Solal et al. [35] and Erben et al. [27] also failed to show any relationship between increased levels of fluoride in serum and bone and the presence of bone conditions such as osteomalacia or osteodystrophy. Similarly, in a small study of infants receiving peritoneal dialysis, significantly increased serum fluoride levels were not associated with dental fluorosis or abnormal bone mineralization [29].


I don't think any amount of paranoia could find anything wrong with this source. It's not American, it's not associated with any dentists, World Health Organization (I assume you think they're in on it, too), or the CDC (of course in on it, too, I assume).

Call me unconvinced.

edit2
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The fluoride in the water is not calcium or sodium fluoride but rather type of fluoride (name is escaping me,,, i will update it when I have access to my book) that is considered by the EPA as a industrial hazardous waste.

I'm like 85% certain that the phosphate industry's fluoride is considered a by-product, not industrial waste. But I mean, if you want to call the molasses made from sugar manufacturing an "industrial waste product", you'd be walkin' along the same lines.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:55 pm 
 
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Sytar wrote:
Quote:
The fluoride in the water is not calcium or sodium fluoride but rather type of fluoride (name is escaping me,,, i will update it when I have access to my book) that is considered by the EPA as a industrial hazardous waste.

I'm like 85% certain that the phosphate industry's fluoride is considered a by-product, not industrial waste. But I mean, if you want to call the molasses made from sugar manufacturing an "industrial waste product", you'd be walkin' along the same lines.


Actually it was considered an industrial waste and before fluoridation of water supplies became standard fair it had to be dealt with under such restrictions (i.e. it could not just be dumped).

If you want a sources for this let me know. I will digg them up out the book.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:13 pm 
 
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Tiva wrote:
Sytar wrote:
Quote:
The fluoride in the water is not calcium or sodium fluoride but rather type of fluoride (name is escaping me,,, i will update it when I have access to my book) that is considered by the EPA as a industrial hazardous waste.

I'm like 85% certain that the phosphate industry's fluoride is considered a by-product, not industrial waste. But I mean, if you want to call the molasses made from sugar manufacturing an "industrial waste product", you'd be walkin' along the same lines.


Actually it was considered an industrial waste and before fluoridation of water supplies became standard fair it had to be dealt with under such restrictions (i.e. it could not just be dumped).

If you want a sources for this let me know. I will digg them up out the book.

Yes I would like sources. I wish this was easier to look into. Everything that shows up right away on google is from obvious kook sites.

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and possibly i like the thrill

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:00 pm 
 
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Sytar wrote:
Yes I would like sources. I wish this was easier to look into. Everything that shows up right away on google is from obvious kook sites.


I lent the book to my friend to read... I should have it back by the end of the week... just by googling though I came across this website:

http://www.fluoride-history.de/chemicals.htm

It is rather well sourced... *although it looks like I *may* be wrong and in fact that ALCOA (aluminum giant) may be selling sodium fluoride to municipalities.

"Some of the waste products of industrial processes -fluorine among them- are not only recoverable but valuable. It seems that a major cause of delay in handling problems of this kind may be the lack of machinery for coördination between industry, the public health services, a number of government departments, and those research-workers who by their individual or collective initiative disclose evils we must all desire to abolish" (4).

(4) "Fluorosis - endemic and man-made", The Lancet II (Dec. 7, 1946) 835;


Last edited by Tiva on Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:02 pm 
 
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A case of does and may.

Does have positive effects on dental health.

May have negative effects on kidney and other major organ systems.

Does > May no matter the extent of either evidence.

I drink a lot of tap water tho, I'm biased.

Do some clinical trials yourself, invest in a party of people and track their bone mass and consistency while they subject themselves to a fluoridated tap water diet.

Turn that may into a does.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:04 pm 
 
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Brippen-Talls wrote:
A case of does and may.

Does have positive effects on dental health.

May have negative effects on kidney and other major organ systems.

Does > May no matter the extent of either evidence.

I drink a lot of tap water tho, I'm biased.

Do some clinical trials yourself, invest in a party of people and track their bone mass and consistency while they subject themselves to a fluoridated tap water diet.

Turn that may into a does.


nah "may" is enough for me to steer clear of it... especially when you look at the non-existent negative effects of not consuming fluoride... mottled teeth rofl

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:58 pm 
 
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Tiva wrote:
Sytar wrote:
Yes I would like sources. I wish this was easier to look into. Everything that shows up right away on google is from obvious kook sites.


I lent the book to my friend to read... I should have it back by the end of the week... just by googling though I came across this website:

http://www.fluoride-history.de/chemicals.htm

It is rather well sourced... *although it looks like I *may* be wrong and in fact that ALCOA (aluminum giant) may be selling sodium fluoride to municipalities.

"Some of the waste products of industrial processes -fluorine among them- are not only recoverable but valuable. It seems that a major cause of delay in handling problems of this kind may be the lack of machinery for coördination between industry, the public health services, a number of government departments, and those research-workers who by their individual or collective initiative disclose evils we must all desire to abolish" (4).

(4) "Fluorosis - endemic and man-made", The Lancet II (Dec. 7, 1946) 835;

Everything about this source relating to the "industrial waste" status of fluoride is highly nebulous, in my opinion. The quote from the book, I'm not even going to begin to regard, because I don't know anything about the author of the book. The Lancet article, while infinitely more authoritative, fails to really meet my standard of proof as well. The writers of the Lancet article are likely Biologists. Their knowledge of the classification of by-products in industrial processes is likely to be limited, and is not particularly authoritative. Moreover, I can't find this Lancet article anywhere. I can find fluorosis related topics dating back to the 60's, but not this article.

edit
Doing a little searching, I find this - an opposing view point that seems to sync with my own, but which lacks definitive proof. It is worth noting, however, that the information they collected is corroborated by the research I previously posted.

Quote:
. Fluoride is industrial waste from fertiliser production.

B. This is a half-truth. Fluoride is a by-product of the fertiliser industry. Fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral. It is found in areas that also have high levels of phosphate, which is used as fertiliser. The extraction of fluoride from the fertiliser manufacturing is more accurately described as a by-product, not an industrial waste. Molasses is leftover from sugar processing, yet few would call it industrial waste.

3. The untreated industrial waste must be disposed of in a licensed hazardous waste facility.

C. This is true. The untreated waste from the fertiliser manufacturing must be disposed of correctly. However, the purified by-product, fluoride is not "untreated industrial waste". Why would companies go to the trouble of extracting the fluoride if it is just going to be dumped as waste? It is not the fluoride content that makes the waste dangerous. Phosphates in the river systems lead to algal blooms, fish kills etc. This is why the waste must be disposed of carefully.

http://healthfraudoz.blogspot.com/2005/ ... oride.html

They even have the (obvious) sugar-->molasses / phosphate-->fluoride analogy.

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i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
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over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big love-crumbs,

and possibly i like the thrill

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:18 pm 
 
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h/o looks like I found it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 47b4457e1d

This is one of the four mentions on the internet of this article according to Google. Interestingly enough, EoN is one of those four.

But unless somebody has institutional access to science direct, looks like a whole lot of nothin'.

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and possibly i like the thrill

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:21 am 
 
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The author meticulously sources the Fluoride Deception... I would be giving you the direct source not just saying hey believe this Bryson fellow.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:25 am 
 
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Tiva wrote:
The author meticulously sources the Fluoride Deception... I would be giving you the direct source not just saying hey believe this Bryson fellow.

I'm not following. I didn't see any "Fluoride Deception" referenced.

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i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
of your electric fur, and what-is-it comes
over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big love-crumbs,

and possibly i like the thrill

of under me you quite so new

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:32 am 
 
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The reasoning of this site:

http://www.fluoride-history.de/chemicals.htm
Quote:
Nowadays, fluoroaluminate complexes are extensively used in biochemical studies for their known effects on the so-called "G-Proteins" whereby they cause considerable toxic effects (25). (Will it make a difference whether the aluminum and the fluoride are ingested separately (with food and drink) and meet under the favorable conditions for complex formation in the stomach?)


...is spectacularly spurious. That fluroaluminate complexes will form in the stomach...and the proteins will manage not to become denatured in the hydrochloric acid (lol) is so wild a notion that it deserves little scrutiny.

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i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
of your electric fur, and what-is-it comes
over parting flesh . . . . And eyes big love-crumbs,

and possibly i like the thrill

of under me you quite so new

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:39 am 
 
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Sytar wrote:
They even have the (obvious) sugar-->molasses / phosphate-->fluoride analogy.


haha, i just read this interview of him.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 47b4457e1d

i love how he manages to tie community water fluoridation to 9/11. i haven't read the book yet to see if he can substantiate any of the claims i've read so far.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:56 pm 
 
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Tiva, do you buy into every conspiracy theory around?

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